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SC vs Manager at Deloitte

 
#1 SC vs Manager at Deloitte
10/11/2010 20:00

Torn

Hi,

Would really appreciate professional advice...

About me:

SM in a small but highly commercial business - proven track record of delivering value, smashing targets etc in small/med sized business

Recently interviewed with Deloitte for Mgr position in Consulting. Salary put forward slightly higher on what I'm on now. After 2 x interviews, assessment centre and 2 x telephone chats, an offer emerged for SC. Reason being I lack consulting experience. They did not want the added pressure of selling and targets affecting my steep learning curve in consulting. They have offered highest possible salary for SC plus a sign on bonus. (which I'm told is very rare!) Overall, it will be a slight pay-cut for me. Money isn't the biggest factor for me anyway.

Dilemma:

Have another SM positin offer within a medium sized co. Slightly more money compared to my current earnings. They are so keen on me.

I'm told typically it's a 2 year time lag before you move one grade to another. Deloitte mentioned someone who has done it in 6 months. They recognise that I will probably move up quickly hence the top SC salary and sign on bonus to bring the remuneration as close as possible to my current salary.

What is the fundamental difference between SC and Mgr? What is the difference in targets, accountability, etc?

I'm told at Deloitte the grading is completely different compared to others like ACN.

Do they bring Mgr with no consulting experience or is one expected to prove him/herself first before being promoted for Mgr?

I have delivered projects for global players in similar consulting methodology/principles. I have not worked for a consulting firm as such.

I obviously didn't tick all the boxes for Mgr grade, is the norm for someone with no strict consulting experience as such?

I recognise that not a lot of companies can rival Deloitte's career progression, however I'm concerned if I go in at that level, I might get demoralised given the level of ownership, accountability, influence, credibility I have now and will have in the other job offer.

Really could do with some advice.

Thanks so much!

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#2 RE: SC vs Manager at Deloitte
10/11/2010 22:01

No name to Torn (#1)

Hi "Torn" - Sorry, I can't help with your query, but could you share your experience of the assesment centre on the "Deloitte Assesment Centre" thread? I have been invited to one after completing a face to face with a SM. I'm assuming that is the last stage and the telephone chats you mention were simply around negotiating over the Mgr/SC issue?

Thanks,

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#3 RE: SC vs Manager at Deloitte
11/11/2010 10:03

eg to No name (#2)

I am looking at making a move from a big-4 to a smaller/medium firm and the only advice I would give is that be very clear on what you want out of Deloitte.

Key to progression in any company is how can you make an impact and in a bigger one you might be a small fish in a big pond hence unless you are bringing something specialist to the table it could be challenging.

Opportunities might be more but depending on how the company is structured can be difficult to move roles, industries, etc

Personally I would be reluctant to go at the top of a lower grade, try and position it around going at the bottom of the grade above and if there are concerns around you performing then they have the probationary period to get rid of you anyway.

Unless you get lucky (which can happen) - usually promotion could take 2 cycles as it can take time to find the right role for promotion, build up the network, etc etc

Also, how confident are you that you can perform at Manager level? If confident then push for Mgr, if unsure then SC is a safer bet but be prepared for the slog to move levels.

FYI - I was at Acc and have been experienced people coming in at the right grade and a grade below and being successful and struggling in both cases. Eventually depends on mindset and having realistic expectations of the kind of work and what to expect out of them.

Ask to speak to peers at both SC and Mgr grade to get an idea of what they actually do, try and find people in your network who might have worked there before to get an unbiased opinion.

Bottom line - is the opportunity and move to Deloitte worth a cut in level and pay in the short term?

Or can you get better experience and grow professionally faster in the medium sized co and then could potentially come back to Deloitte in the future.

Sorry if this post does not flow, just doing a brain dump - use and ignore as you wish but hope some of it is helpful.

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#4 RE: SC vs Manager at Deloitte
11/11/2010 17:35

Toilette to eg (#3)

Deloitte do make quite a number of offers to a level just below what people are hoping for and try to say that there is the potential for quick promotion. They are not the only people by any means that do this. When they say that promotion can happen in 6 months, that is true, but unlikely. The first 6 months may have you outperform on your projects, but you will need to develop the network, and also be known for being part of teams winning work as well as the third leg of non billable interests. Those that have been promoted after 6 months are often those that have come from a grade below rather than new entrants in my experience and are people who are good and lucky enough at the same time to get a role where they are stretched and make themselves valuable not only to an important client, but also the related partner as a result.

A long way of saying, it will most likely take 2-3 years to get promoted even if you come in at the top level for your grade, so be aware if you take it. That will mean relatively small if no salary growth and bonuses are mostly never that great anyway. From a career development perspective it may make sense, but be aware of potentially getting frustrated at SC with seemingly less experienced people who may move ahead of you.

My summary is push for manager if you believe you can deliver and back yourself. If they stick with SC and you are comfortable it is the right decision career wise operating on a 2-3 year base case at that level, then accept. Otherwise, move on.

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#5 RE: SC vs Manager at Deloitte
11/11/2010 20:07

Torn to Toilette (#4)

Thanks Toilette and eg, very useful advice indeed. I've arranged to speak to a SM, will try to get more clarification.

Thanks once again.

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#6 RE: SC vs Manager at Deloitte
12/11/2010 16:31

Torn to Torn (#5)

I'm still unable to reach a decision, someone please help...

I spoke to a SM yesterday, she basically said there is steep learning curve to Consulting. I need to do that first before becoming a Manager. She said I'm in between a SC and Mgr. Consulting is so unique that it can't be compared to any projects I may have delivered. It all boils down to lack of experience in Consulting.

Yesterday's call was to discuss the gaps and my performance measures to becoming a Mgr, which is gain consulting experience without the pressure of having targets. However, she did say you are still expected to sell at SC level (not in writing) if you are pushing for Mgr.

I was determined to push for Mgr today and relayed this to the agency representing me. She categorically said no. She said the facts are I do not meet Manager grade and Deloitte isn't going to make any exceptions for me by setting a different precedent.

I'm discouraged to push now...Interestingly, I got another call from another agency who came across my cv. She also said that I would struggle to push for Mgr level without consulting experience.

Based on the advice above, I'm concerned about accepting the SC position and not seeing the progression at a pace I would have liked and am told is possible based on my potential. The agency representing me basically said the move to push could damage the situation as she feels they simply would not consider that. She declined to do that. I said in that case it's a no. She asked me to think this through over the weekend and let her know over the weekend.

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#7 RE: SC vs Manager at Deloitte
12/11/2010 17:11

Me2 to Torn (#1)

Torn - It's unlikely for any of the top consulting firms to employ someone with no consulting background as a Mgr. We bring in people with serious experience and they normally are put in a a lower grade than they would like to prove thier consulting abilities.

To say that though, it is standard practice for consulting firms to bring all of their successful candidates in a level below. Almost always do they use the old "You're top of the level below" line.

They get more bang for their buck that way and get a chance to see if you cut it or not.

I wouldn't rule out the SC move if I were you but that depends on your career aspirations (and age to a degree). You'll get some terrific client experience which is a major plus.

Good luck mate, I'd use the weekend to have a think, in the long term, it may not seem like a bad move.

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#8 RE: SC vs Manager at Deloitte
12/11/2010 17:24

Torn to Me2 (#7)

Me2, thanks for your advice.

Age did cross my mind too. I'm 34, not particularly that young. There's bound to be younger SC and Mgrs compared to me. I also checked their landscape, supposedly SC's and Mgrs are the common grades. Less juniors and Seniors.

Yes will think more over the weekend...it boils down to my career aspirations, if I want to be part of a co. like Deloitte...but that means entering at a lower level and learning the curve.

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#9 RE: SC vs Manager at Deloitte
12/11/2010 17:28

Me2 to Torn (#8)

No probs Torn - Good luck!

BTW - 34's a good age to come in at SC level, I don't believe it's up or out so there is likely to be a diverse age range.

Like I say, factor the client exposure into your reasoning, it's worth a lot!

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#10 SC vs Manager at Deloitte
12/11/2010 23:38

Torn to Me2 (#9)

Hi Me2...

Spoke to an old friend in IBM, she advised me to accept it. It's a good offer, she also confirmed that they don't bring people in at Mgr level without consulting experience. The fact that there is a sign on bonus that takes me close to the low end of the upper grade, again she said they are expecting me to progress quickly. Otherwise no room for salary review.

She also said not to be too bothered by grade or status, be focussed on the client project. She just basically confirmed everything Deloitte said. I'm much more comfortable now.

Thanks once again for your input. All the best!

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#11 RE: SC vs Manager at Deloitte
13/11/2010 18:04

Big4 to Torn (#10)

Torn, as a former Big4 consultant I'd recommend you think through what you really want from Deloitte. If its the brand and the client exposure more than anything the SC won't be a barrier to you, as long as you are capable and a great networker you will move through to M in good time (1-2 years). Out of interest what was the top end SC salary they offered you?

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#12 RE: SC vs Manager at Deloitte
14/11/2010 12:25

Torn to Big4 (#11)

Hi Big4,

You're exactly right - the client exposure and the brand name would help aid my career further and purely for those reasons I'm seriously considering this opportunity. They've offered 60k plus 3k sign on. Does this sound right to u? I'm told Mgr starting salary is £65k.

Thanks for ur advice.

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#13 RE: SC vs Manager at Deloitte
15/11/2010 14:08

anon to Torn (#12)

I know this is a difficult decision for you, however you need to think through and see where this opportunity will take you in 5 years. Do you see that this role will take you where you want? As long you can think rationally, consulting is not very different to how certain companies work internally.

I am a consultant my self and have been in small and large organisations. Deloitte obviously expect you to learn the consulting side of it, but that could mean it may take however long in their view. If the role you will be taking, gives you the scope for moving quickly then you should go for it. end of the day, it's about what you have learned and not where you have worked that will help make your next move.

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#14 RE: SC vs Manager at Deloitte
15/11/2010 14:50

Toilette to anon (#13)

Just to add that it is worth balancing out the medium / long term with the next couple of years. While it wil be a struggle to get promoted within a year depending on the timing of when you join, when the end of year review is etc. Mid year reviews are unlikely to be helpful until you have built up a stronger network. If you are prepared that the most likely time is actually after a couple of years, then anything before that is a bonus. There is of course a very small chance that you are great and that does get recognised, but the numbers are small. After moving to Manager, it is possible to keep momentum going though and get promoted quickly although you will need to be selling at SM and Director level and business cases are needed for both. I have seen somebody bounce through from Consultant to Senior Manager with a year in each, but he was viewed as exceptional and was constantly able to perform well above his level and was well received by senior client team members.

On the age thing, it is not an issue to be 34 at all and there is no up or out policy. Just be careful that you don't feel resentment that there will be much younger and less experienced people in the same role as that will happen. Your own career track is the most important thing not somebody else's, particularly as a number of the old AA partners made partner by about the same age.

It is a tricky decision, but really only you will understand your own motivation, how you react and what you want from your career path. It can be a very good place to work as long as you enjoy the work and the people around you. I decided to leave, but don't regret my time their at all

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#15 RE: SC vs Manager at Deloitte
15/11/2010 15:52

Anonosaurous to Toilette (#14)

In my experience, unless they're just in it for the couple of years 'consulting' experience and brand value - most people don't regret being brought in at a grade below where they think they shoud be and normally admit it helps them in the long term.

This is esepcially true at SC vs Manager grade. Being a stressed out manager who is underperforming will have damaging long term effects on your reputation (and health) in the short-medium term.

I'd take SC level with manager salary (which is what you've been offered make no mistake) any day.

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#16 RE: SC vs Manager at Deloitte
15/11/2010 16:12

anon to Anonosaurous (#15)

is the recruitment process same for manager as well as senior manager in Deloitte?

If so, does it mean even Senior Manager candidates needs to go through assessment day including group excercise?

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#17 RE: SC vs Manager at Deloitte
15/11/2010 22:11

Big4 to Torn (#12)

Torn, you've been offered an excellent salary for an SC more or less manager salary, so salary concern shouldn't be your main worry. As others have said, as long as you are able to 'grin and bear' it for a couple of years, whilst learning the consulting industry (its not as complex as some make out), you will be fine to achieve your longer term. Good luck!

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#18 RE: SC vs Manager at Deloitte
15/11/2010 22:37

Torn to Big4 (#17)

Thanks everyone for your input and thought-provoking consideration. I have decided to accept the offer on the grounds of commercial exposure that will aid my future career path. I do lack blue-chip co. experience and this role will fill the gap. I really do appreciate your open and candid response. Wish you all the best.

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#19 RE: SC vs Manager at Deloitte
16/11/2010 11:11

Me2 to Torn (#18)

Congratulations Torn! Sure you won't regret it, I've recently got an ex collegue a role there and know a few others who have jumped across.

I'm sure you will enjoy it and you now have a handy period of time to assess whether consulting and Mgr level is for you without having to compete with Mgrs who know the firm inside out - and without having an SM beating you up every day :)

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#20 RE: SC vs Manager at Deloitte
16/11/2010 22:32

Torn to Me2 (#19)

Lol...sounds like a very sensible decision indeed. Just another quick question, at SC level do u typically do Mon-Thurs or Mon-Fri at client site? I'm sure it will depend on the project too, but it'll be nice to know just how much of my life I'm going to lose!

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#21 RE: SC vs Manager at Deloitte
17/11/2010 07:52

Me2 to Torn (#20)

I think it depends on the Project mate. Client always comes first but it's worth asking the question at the time of rolling on.

Good luck!

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#22 RE: SC vs Manager at Deloitte
16/11/2011 12:03

Cashe to Me2 (#21)

Hi Torn,

Firstly let me thank you on an excellent thread.

I too find myself in exactly the same position as you did almost a year to the date ago. I would be very interested to hear whether deciding to take the position at SC level was the right thing to do.

I’m also 34 years old and have held an Executive Management position for the last 5 years in industry. Taking a SC (C3) level position for a top consultancy firm will open me up to an industry where I ultimately want to be but it does have a significant salary impact. This in its self is not a major problem however I’m more worried about feeling demotivated if the role does not live up to expectations.

Any advice would be greatly appreciated.

Cashe

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#23 RE: SC vs Manager at Deloitte
12/12/2011 12:47

NotVeryNonymous to Cashe (#22)

Hi Cache,

Just came across this thread. Couple of cautions: First, SC is not really an executive grade, so if you're used to making decisions, it might be a bit frustrating. Second, just to emphasise what a couple of people said further up the thread, "you can get promoted in six months" is technically true, but incredibly rare. You have to learn how to be a consultant, how to add value in the client role you're assigned to, and how to play the internal company politics. That last one means building up a good network of contacts, which I reckon will take at least 18 months to pay off.

Still, it's a good job for expanding your horizons.

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#24 RE: SC vs Manager at Deloitte
16/12/2011 08:55

rc to NotVeryNonymous (#23)

I have a bunch of Deloitte people in my function. If I didn't already know what grades they were, and had to sort them into Deloitte grade buckets, they would not come out as they are currently! Moral - consultancies overengineer and overanalyse their hierarchies and grade differentiations, and the whole associated carrot-dangling process, and it's a key tool for managing down their costs - so don't put yourself in a position of being disadvantaged by that.

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#25 RE: SC vs Manager at Deloitte
16/12/2011 15:01

Cashe to NotVeryNonymous (#23)

Hi NotVeryNonymous,

Thank you for replying.

I've made a tremendous effort to be internally happy with my decision in regards to this topic and I feel that I have achieved this.

As you so rightly said, I would be more than happy to be a SC for 18 or even 24 months so I can properly "learn the trade" to the level that is expected; add real value within client projects and most importantly establish a strong network. It is going to take more than 6 months to really have this foundation in place.

Ideally I would want to be at manager level once I had decisively demonstrated my worth by adding value and having the ability to bring on new business that at the very least covers my own cost.

Finally, I completely agree with you last line, "it's a good job for expanding your horizons."

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#26 RE: SC vs Manager at Deloitte
03/04/2012 20:02

consultant2012 to Torn (#12)

Hi mate, is that 60k your base salary or your total package (base + benefits)??? One of my colleagues is a new SC and has been offered around total of 61-62k (base+benefits).

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#27 RE: SC vs Manager at Deloitte
04/04/2012 16:14

Rollercoaster to consultant2012 (#26)

An old thread but thought I'd add to it. The differentiation between SC and manager is the sales targets. If you have a pipeline of contacts and opportunities then go for manager. If you don't then go for SC.

At another firm I used to work at there was a problem with too many managers without pipelines or work. Not a good situation, partners and other execs only have so many opportunities they can share out.

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#28 RE: SC vs Manager at Deloitte
05/11/2012 17:25

garry to Torn (#18)

Hi Torn,

Thank you for an excellent thread. It is still helpful for people like me 2 year after the original post .

I am a manager in a telecom company & contracting for past few years.

Deloitte is offering me same salary and grade they offered you 2 years ago (stating same reasons - no sales & consultancy experience).

I would be very interested to hear whether deciding to take the position at SC level was the right thing to do for you.

Regards,

Garry

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#29 RE: SC vs Manager at Deloitte
04/02/2013 16:18

cloudnumbernine4u to garry (#28)

Dear All,

My advice for any such situations would be to join only if you wish to move into a consultancy role. All these promises of 6 months for promotion are completely baseless and nobody gets promoted within 6 months. it will take at least 2 years for you to be promoted from SC to Manager and that too with too many caveats....

(Unless anybody on this forum is giving his own example of joining at SC and getting promoted within 6 months to manager..!)

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#30 RE: SC vs Manager at Deloitte
04/02/2013 16:19

cloudnumbernine4u to garry (#28)

Dear All,

My advice for any such situations would be to join only if you wish to move into a consultancy role. All these promises of 6 months for promotion are completely baseless and nobody gets promoted within 6 months. it will take at least 2 years for you to be promoted from SC to Manager and that too with too many caveats....

(Unless anybody on this forum is giving his own example of joining at SC and getting promoted within 6 months to manager..!)

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